Injury from soft shackle failure

mrblaine said:
There is so much confusion and mythology about basic recovery that it boggles the mind. The amount of BS has become so ingrained that it's pretty scary how little folks work to learn the truth and simple basics of safety. They see a lot of folks doing something a certain way, they copy it with no thought given as to what is really going
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This has become a serious problem too. Had a guy who was about ready to throw down when I told him a particular now famous winch donut was bad gear.

mrblaine said:
Then we have the same BS perpetuated by companies that sell gear. It all adds up to some pretty terrible practices that can get you hurt.
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I do not understand how companies will let bad information perpetuated by social media influence proper engineering. Their job is to promote good product and practices using that product and not kowtow to the internet mobs.
 
steelhd said:
Once upon a time maybe, and now only rarely. The modern mission for most is to maximize profits and shareholder value.
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Add to that, most of the junk is bought by guys playing dress up and will never use their bumper jewelry. And what does get used out in field is rarely taken to the limits of the poor design or the questionable usage. The result is that what gets sold isn't being sold or purchased with a desire or need for function behind it. The problem is on both ends. The seller and the buyer.
 
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jjvw said:
Add to that, most of the junk is bought by guys playing dress up and will never use their bumper jewelry. And what does get used out in field is rarely taken to the limits of the poor design or the questionable usage. The result is that what gets sold isn't being sold or purchased with a desire or need for function behind it. The problem is on both ends. The seller and the buyer.
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Also unfortunate and all too true.
 
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Can someone help me understand the negative in having, for example, a 1" kinetic rope rather than a 3/4"? Sometimes there are mixtures of rigs on a trail. Some Jeeps, some 3/4" tons, etc..so gear may vary in a group.
 
JMT said:
Can someone help me understand the negative in having, for example, a 1" kinetic rope rather than a 3/4"? Sometimes there are mixtures of rigs on a trail. Some Jeeps, some 3/4" tons, etc..so gear may vary in a group.
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Rope stretch vs vehicle(s) weight and inertia. The thicker the rope, the the less stretch it has. If a kinetic rope requires "some amount" of stretch to be both effective and safe, then achieving that stretch is related to the forces being applied to it.
 
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I know there were multiple mistakes made in the recovery attempt but if you had to pick a smoking gun what would it be? I'm torn between the excessive force that was used and the improper use of the soft shackle thru the ring mount. The damage to the Bronco pushes me more to the excessive force. If you take one of those things out of the equation I wonder if the shackle still would have failed.
 
B1Toad said:
I know there were multiple mistakes made in the recovery attempt but if you had to pick a smoking gun what would it be? I'm torn between the excessive force that was used and the improper use of the soft shackle thru the ring mount. The damage to the Bronco pushes me more to the excessive force. If you take one of those things out of the equation I wonder if the shackle still would have failed.
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Excessive is very subjective. If the same force were applied to a properly sized kinetic rope with a bow shackle in the bumper tab, would it still have failed?
 
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mrblaine said:
Excessive is very subjective. If the same force were applied to a properly sized kinetic rope with a bow shackle in the bumper tab, would it still have failed?
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Bow shackle screwed all the way in or a 1/4 turn loose? =)

I didn't watch the video but I like to start out slow before I give it the beans.

I often encourage folks to go and do trash pickups. I spend a lot of time rigging winch lines. I'm probably doing a lot of things wrong but I'm learning. And the nice thing about learning on burned out cars and abandoned RVs is mistakes have far less consequences.

-Mac
 
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B1Toad said:
I know there were multiple mistakes made in the recovery attempt but if you had to pick a smoking gun what would it be? I'm torn between the excessive force that was used and the improper use of the soft shackle thru the ring mount. The damage to the Bronco pushes me more to the excessive force. If you take one of those things out of the equation I wonder if the shackle still would have failed.
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mrblaine said:
Excessive is very subjective. If the same force were applied to a properly sized kinetic rope with a bow shackle in the bumper tab, would it still have failed?
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Looking for a smoking gun tends to lead to too many opinions looking too narrowly at the situation rather than its entirety. As Blaine eludes to things start to become subjective rather than objective.

So lets play out a couple variables to this scenario:

Not changing anything other than if they had used less force but hit it many more times what would happen? Would there have been a failure? If something were to fail what would it have been and what would have been the result of that failure? My guess would be one of few things, first there would have been a good chance that with a series of smaller "tugs" that the Bronco would have popped back onto the trail. Knowing what I saw in the vid and examining how they were operating (ie being in a rush) my guess is that they would have progressively increased the force of each tug ultimately leading to a component failure.

But what if the rope was properly sized and the same amount of force was applied what would to end result have been? There is a chance the rope itself could have failed rather than an attachment. This in reality would be the preferred scenario as some energy would dissipate as the rope goes beyond its elastic limit at the time of failure versus what happened which is a fully loaded rubber band was let go at one end. So the rope would still have flung around but with less overall energy to cause damage with and with possibly less mass as there is a better chance the rope itself would fail and therefore the weight of the eye would not be a part of it.

Ultimately it all still boils back to do not be in a rush.
 
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Blackjack said:
There may have been a period of time where 1/4 turn loose was considered the norm but it is not the correct way.
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This video shows there being a difference in breaking strength between a tight pin and a partial turn loose. Though it is a relatively minor variance at the far end of the capacity of the shackle and far outside the WLL.

 
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jjvw said:
This video shows there being a difference in breaking strength between a tight pin and a partial turn loose. Though it is a relatively minor variance at the far end of the capacity of the shackle and far outside the WLL.

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Now you got me wanting to see them test one of the cheap shackles from Amazon vs those Crosby shackles. If anyone can find that post it up.
 
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jjvw said:
This video shows there being a difference in breaking strength between a tight pin and a partial turn loose. Though it is a relatively minor variance at the far end of the capacity of the shackle and far outside the WLL.
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Don't confuse the risks and requirements of vertical rigging and crane operations with the reality of using a 3/4" bow shackle on a winch line doing 4x4 recoveries.
 
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steelhd said:
Don't confuse the risks and requirements of vertical rigging and crane operations with the reality of using a 3/4" bow shackle on a winch line doing 4x4 recoveries.
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In the context of a 4x4 recovery, what are the requirements of how tight the pin should be screwed into
its bow shackle?
 
macleanflood said:
Bow shackle screwed all the way in or a 1/4 turn loose? =)
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In that scenario, it is hard for me to tell which is work, yanking on a bow shackle and side loading the pin, or leaving it loose. I don't do a quarter turn, I tighten them and then just back them off ever so slightly from tight by hand. Only because I've had a hard time getting the pin loose by hand again and had to go get tools.
macleanflood said:
I didn't watch the video but I like to start out slow before I give it the beans.
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As you should but, it is hard to explain in words, much better to demonstrate. I do like to give a moderate tug to see what's gonna move and what isn't. If it looks like it is moving, then more of the same will generally do it. The bigger issue is getting the driver of the stuck rig to get his tires moving just enough to help and not so much that it digs deeper.
macleanflood said:
I often encourage folks to go and do trash pickups. I spend a lot of time rigging winch lines. I'm probably doing a lot of things wrong but I'm learning. And the nice thing about learning on burned out cars and abandoned RVs is mistakes have far less consequences.

-Mac
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steelhd said:
Don't confuse the risks and requirements of vertical rigging and crane operations with the reality of using a 3/4" bow shackle on a winch line doing 4x4 recoveries.
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I've never seen one ever used correctly. Folks spend too much time making bumper tabs perfectly fit the pins so they don't rattle which means you can only do a perfectly straight pull which is mostly not possible. And we have folks build spacers to make that all even worse.
 
JMT said:
Can someone help me understand the negative in having, for example, a 1" kinetic rope rather than a 3/4"? Sometimes there are mixtures of rigs on a trail. Some Jeeps, some 3/4" tons, etc..so gear may vary in a group.
Click to expand...

It is a similar concept to stiffness in rear axles. In the Dana 44, the much larger diameter and therefore stiffer, more resistant to twist 35 spline axle shafts have a tendency to transfer shock loads upstream to the rest of the drive train. They don't twist much or have much give to them to absorb or mitigate shock loads so the rest of the drive train takes the punishment.

It is the same principle we use on long extensions to try a break a stuck fastener loose. If I put my 36" x 3/8" extension on the big impact to try and get the trans bellhousing bolts loose, it rarely does it. I have to get the larger diameter 1/2" extension out and use it since the smaller one doesn't transfer the impact forces as well.

That said, another way to view it is all materials have some level of spring to them. Even steel cables stretch and elongate under load. Chain stretches and elongates under load as do our high performance synthetic winch lines. Theoretically, they can be used kinetically since they do stretch. But, we want to be able to stretch the connection as smoothly as possible and then let that stored energy release slower so that the shock loads are mitigated and the transfer of force to the connection points is not jarring and not shock loading as much or at all.

The larger the rope diameter, the more force it takes to elongage it and the less likely it is to smooth out the transfer of energy. The challenge is to size the rope correctly which is why one size does not fit all.
 
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Blackjack said:
I do not understand how companies will let bad information perpetuated by social media influence proper engineering. Their job is to promote good product and practices using that product and not kowtow to the internet mobs.
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The ones I'm familiar with are not being influenced by social media, they are influencing social media. They built an entire product philosophy around the violation of most of the common sense rules of recovery.
Minimize the number of connections. Each connection adds a point of failure, failure is bad.
Protect your gear with your life since your life and your rig may and does at times depend on your gear.

If you understand and follow those two without deviation, there is a lot of gear you will never buy or at least you will modify it after purchase to be as safe as possible.
 
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