Variables of Ignition Timing in a Stock TJ

SSTJ

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Mine is a 97 SE (2.5L), if that matters.

1) I'm wondering which sensor signals are monitored by the PCM for its adjustments to ignition timing. Also wondering (roughly) in what ways the timing is adjusted for each of those signals. I'm hoping for something like this:
  • MAP sensor:
    • At idle (high vacuum), the timing is slightly [advanced/delayed] so that [such and such happens].
    • As vacuum pressure decreases (approaching atmospheric), the timing is [advanced/delayed] so that [such and such happens].
  • RPMs:
    • At idle ...
    • As RPMs increase ...
2) I also think that my 97 SE does not have any mechanical variables on ignition timing, such as a "Centrifugal Advance Mechanism", or a "Vacuum Advance Mechanism". Instead, I think it's all in the PCM. Right?

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Answers So Far (Please Correct / Improve)

2) Yes, ignition timing is controlled entirely by the ECU.
  • "The 2.5L engine distributor does not have built-in centrifugal or vacuum assisted advances. Ignition timing/advance is controlled by the Electronic Control Unit (ECU). Because ignition timing is controlled by the ECU, base ignition timing is not adjustable on any of these engines. The distributor is locked in place by an ear on the distributor housing that a hold down bolt passes through when the distributor is installed. Because the distributor position is locked when installed, its rotational position cannot be changed. DO NOT attempt to modify the distributor housing to get distributor rotation. [...] Distributor position will have no effect on ignition timing. The position of the distributor will determine fuel synchronization only."

1) Consensus seems to be that there is an ignition timing "base map", with values that depend upon two variables: RPMs and MAP (Manifold Air Pressure). Then, signals from the IAT (Intake Air Temp) and ECT (Engine Coolant Temp) are monitored to slightly offset the base-map values. They are effectively lookup tables for fine-tuning the values of the base map. Finally, signal from TPS (Throttle Position Sensor) is also used for more minor adjustments. In order of significance, it may look something like this:

Final Timing = Base Timing (RPM & MAP) + IAT Offset + ECT Offset + TPS Adjustment​

Base Map
  • RPMs: "Engine Speed"
    • @freedom_in_4low suggests below that timing will generally advance with increase with RPM. Since the engine is moving faster, ignition needs to initiate a few degrees earlier to ignite the charge at the right point in the rotation.
    • I've read elsewhere that this is true for moderate increases in RPM, but that at higher RPMs or when under high load, timing might be delayed slightly. This would be a protective measure against knocking, which is more likely to occur at high engine speeds and high loads.
  • MAP: "Manifold Air Pressure"
    • Increased MAP (Lower Vacuum): Delays timing under higher load to prevent knocking.
    • Decreased MAP (Higher Vacuum): Advances timing during low load for improved efficiency.
  • Note that there appear to be two base maps for ignition timing, depending upon whether or not the EGR is active. ("Exhaust Gas Recirculation" reduces nitrogen oxide emissions by recirculating a portion of exhaust back to the engine. It lowers combustion temperature in the process. It is deactivated in conditions like heavy load or cold starts.)
    • When deactivated, the base table used is called "Main Spark (EGR Off)".
    • When active, the base table used is called "Warm Spark".
    • The "Main Spark" base map shows a wider range of values, and also includes decimal (half-degree) values. When EGR is off, ignition timing needs to be more precisely controlled to prevent knocking, due to higher temperatures."
Offsets:​
  • IAT:
    • At colder intake temperatures, ignition timing is slightly advanced. Colder air is denser, and flame propagation occurs more slowly. To ensure that combustion gives peak pressure at the right point in the cycle (15-ish degrees after top-dead-center), the process has to be initiated a bit earlier.
    • At warmer intake temperatures, ignition timing is slightly delayed. Warmer air is less dense, and flame propagation occurs more rapidly. To ensure that combustion gives peak pressure at the right point in the cycle, the process has to be initiated a bit later.
  • ECT:
    • At lower engine temps, the PCM advances ignition timing to help the engine warm up, and to stabilize idling.
    • At higher/operating engine temps, the timing is adjusted back to normal values.
    • At highest engine temps, timing is delayed slightly, to prevent overheating and/or knocking.
Adjustment:​
  • TPS:
    • Some sources suggest that TPS is the third variable of the base map. However, it seems to play a more minor role. For instance, HP doesn't seem to show TPS in the base map (see here and here).
    • What's below is hypothetical, coming from ChatGPT 4.0. Eager to hear feedback from others.
    • Rapid Changes in Acceleration or Deceleration:
      • Sudden Acceleration (Rapid Increase in Throttle Opening): PCM may advance the timing briefly to provide a quicker throttle response and avoid hesitation
      • Sudden Deceleration (Rapid Decrease in Throttle Opening): PCM may delay the timing to reduce the risk of backfiring and to improve engine braking.
    • Idle and Part-Throttle Situations:
      • Idle: During idle, the TPS helps the PCM stabilize the engine's idle speed. Although the MAP sensor primarily controls idle speed, the TPS ensures consistency in throttle opening, and timing may be slightly advanced to maintain stability.
      • Part-Throttle (Cruising): At steady-state cruising, the PCM may advance the timing to improve fuel efficiency, especially when the throttle opening is relatively small and engine load is low.
Illustrations:
  • @TEZZA gave some HP screenshots from a stock 97 XJ, here.
 
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Mine is a 97 SE (2.5L), if that matters.

1) I'm wondering which sensor signals are monitored by the PCM for its adjustments to ignition timing. Also wondering (roughly) in what ways the timing is adjusted for each of those signals. I'm hoping for something like this:
  • MAP sensor:
    • At idle (high vacuum), the timing is slightly [advanced/retarded] so that [such and such happens].
    • As vacuum pressure decreases (approaching atmospheric), the timing is [advanced/retarded] so that [such and such happens].
  • RPMs:
    • At idle ...
    • As RPMs increase ...
2) I also think that my 97 SE does not have any mechanical variables on ignition timing, such as a "Centrifugal Advance Mechanism", or a "Vacuum Advance Mechanism". Instead, I think it's all in the PCM. Right?

To my knowledge there's a base timing map using rpm, MAP and TPS, and then it's retarded from that base map with increasing IAT.

And yes, it's all pcm.
 
To my knowledge there's a base timing map using rpm, MAP and TPS, and then it's retarded from that base map with increasing IAT.

And yes, it's all pcm.

Thanks. Ok, so the base map has three variables. I suppose that makes sense if MAP, TPS, and RPM are the most critical. Then it sounds like there is a one-variable (IAT) lookup that is used to fine-tune the base map.

Sounds like the IAT adjustment is conceptually straightforward: increasing retardation with increasing IAT?

Any insight into how the base map values change with respect to each of the three variables? Just roughly, are they as conceptually straightforward as the linear-sounding adjustment of the IAT?
 
Thanks. Ok, so the base map has three variables. I suppose that makes sense if MAP, TPS, and RPM are the most critical. Then it sounds like there is a one-variable (IAT) lookup that is used to fine-tune the base map.

Sounds like the IAT adjustment is conceptually straightforward: increasing retardation with increasing IAT?

Any insight into how the base map values change with respect to each of the three variables? Just roughly, are they as conceptually straightforward as the linear-sounding adjustment of the IAT?

Advance will generally increase with rpm because it needs to ignite the charge earlier in the engines rotation to correctly time it with the motion of the piston, since the engine is moving faster it needs more degrees to get the same time.

I'm not exactly sure how it responds to map and TPS but the density of the air/fuel charge will affect the rate of flame propagation which I would think would call for retarding the timing. (Lower map/more vacuum = more advance)

Drawing an analog to mechanical distributors, the mechanical advance responded to rpm and the vacuum advance to MAP. So I may be drawing tps into the picture inappropriately, or maybe it does play a role now and we benefit from the advantages of technology.

I'm admittedly using some judgment and educated guesses here because it's been at least a decade since I've looked at a fuel or spark map. Somebody like @Jezza that gets into this stuff on the daily can probably correct me or fill in the gaps.
 
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Thanks. Would love to hear from @Jezza. I think that @Wildman has done some tuning also. And @Chris of course.

My playing with tuning has been all based on the tunes that FRP sent me for my V-8. From what I understood from his comments were that when he did adjustments to the tune all he messed with were the timing but I'd have to go back and find the conversations to make sure.

As to which items affect timing I would agree with what you are thinking. Due to the cam I'm running I have lower vacuum than a stock engine so I'm not sure if the MAP plays into it. But it might and FRP might have adjusted for it.
 
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Just skimmed this. I'll try to find my copy of the JTEC PCM manual I have floating around, but CTS and IAT are modifiers that can pull timing. Obviously RPM, MAP, and TPS are the main drivers off the top of my head.
 
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My playing with tuning has been all based on the tunes that FRP sent me for my V-8. From what I understood from his comments were that when he did adjustments to the tune all he messed with were the timing but I'd have to go back and find the conversations to make sure.

As to which items affect timing I would agree with what you are thinking. Due to the cam I'm running I have lower vacuum than a stock engine so I'm not sure if the MAP plays into it. But it might and FRP might have adjusted for it.

Interesting to hear that most of what FRP adjusted was the timing. If you have any notes or correspondence, they may have insight into this.
 
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Interesting to hear that most of what FRP adjusted was the timing. If you have any notes or correspondence, they may have insight into this.

I'll search for the emails and text's and let you know.
 
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Happy reading!

I was pretty excited to open this, but I'm not sure it offers as much insight as I hoped.

It's specific to the Viper, which uses ignition coils and an "ignition control module" but of course it mentions that "From 1996 forward, all Vipers are equipped with a Jeep Truck Engine Controller (JTEC), and are OBDII compliant." Even so, there just isn't much in here about ignition timing. What I did find seems pretty specific to the Viper.

But it did remind me that the CPS plays a role in ignition timing too.
 
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It is a manual written for Viper tuners, yes, but most of the info is generic for the way all JTEC PCM work. It's not broken down in the most logical way though. It goes through each sensor and describes their effect on everything from injector pulse width (fueling) to ignition timing. Look deeper, it's in there. You aren't going to find timing tables or anything though.
 
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I have more to read, but I've updated the OP with what I'm reading so far. Eager to hear others' corrections or improvements.
 
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Here are some examples from a 1997 XJ JTEC PCM:

pcm005.jpg


pcm004.jpg


pcm003.jpg


pcm002.jpg


pcm001.jpg
 
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Interesting, thank you. Stock XJ ... 4.0, I assume?

I'll have a closer look at these soon. For now, I see that IAT and ECT are listed as "base corrections", which is consistent with what I've been reading about a three-variable base map (RPM, MAP, and TPS), and corrections coming from lookups for IAT and ECT. But I don't see TPS in any of these screenshots.
 
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Interesting, thank you. Stock XJ ... 4.0, I assume?

I'll have a closer look at these soon. For now, I see that IAT and ECT are listed as "base corrections", which is consistent with what I've been reading about a three-variable base map (RPM, MAP, and TPS), and corrections coming from lookups for IAT and ECT. But I don't see TPS in any of these screenshots.

Yes the data is for a 4.0
The Jtec seems to look at the tps for closed, part throttle and WOT, it looks at the tps value to compare its value with MAP for detecting a problem, it also senses the rate of TPS change for detecting acceleration and decel.
Read from page 60 of the engine management doc that SkylinesSuck shared.

fuel modifiers.jpg
 
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Yes the data is for a 4.0
The Jtec seems to look at the tps for closed, part throttle and WOT, it looks at the tps value to compare its value with MAP for detecting a problem, it also senses the rate of TPS change for detecting acceleration and decel.
Read from page 60 of the engine management doc that SkylinesSuck shared.

View attachment 524312

Thanks. Busy week ahead, but will return to this and the doc from @SkylinesSuck soon.
 
Advance will generally increase with rpm because it needs to ignite the charge earlier in the engines rotation to correctly time it with the motion of the piston, since the engine is moving faster it needs more degrees to get the same time.

I'm not exactly sure how it responds to map and TPS but the density of the air/fuel charge will affect the rate of flame propagation which I would think would call for retarding the timing. (Lower map/more vacuum = more advance)

Drawing an analog to mechanical distributors, the mechanical advance responded to rpm and the vacuum advance to MAP. So I may be drawing tps into the picture inappropriately, or maybe it does play a role now and we benefit from the advantages of technology.

I'm admittedly using some judgment and educated guesses here because it's been at least a decade since I've looked at a fuel or spark map. Somebody like @Jezza that gets into this stuff on the daily can probably correct me or fill in the gaps.

That all seems accurate to me. Typically higher RPMs and more vacuum will tolerate higher advance numbers. There is also some tendency for the engine to knock at peak torque as well, so timing is usually retarded slightly in those areas as well. Most timing maps have kind of a wave shape to them.
 
HP Tuners has a base table for the JETC and modifies the base table with IAT and ECT tables. The base table uses engine speed and load for the x and y axis. Load is calculated from the MAP sensor. There may be a WOT spark table as well that switches over at a preset TPS value, I honestly can't remember. SCT has more timing multipliers IIRC. Additional ones for power enrichment and so on.
 
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